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Clyde
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Re: A few newly reorganized bookmarks lost & recovered
Reply #5 - May 20th, 2012 at 7:35am
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Jerry Krinock wrote on May 20th, 2012 at 7:25am:
Clyde wrote on May 19th, 2012 at 11:24pm:
I was wondering if it was picking up some age discrepancy thing (well, yes, perhaps iCloud did have some issue like that) but whatever, when making changes of the magnitude I am currently making I will take heed to let iCloud finish it's convulsions before importing Smiley
I don't know.  Conflicts always arise in any syncing system; anyone who has used MobileMe is familiar with the annoying this will change more than 5% of your bookmarks – OK or Cancel? dialog from iSync.  It was quite un-Mac-like and I'm sure Apple got a lot of negative feedback on that.  With iCloud, Apple has removed this – to an extreme.  There is no documentation whatsoever.  All they tell you is to switch on the Bookmarks checkbox in System PreferencesiCloud.  You then get what looks like a "choice" – it asks you whether or not you want to Merge your bookmarks with those in iCloud, with OK and Cancel.  But it's not really a choice because clicking Cancel just aborts the setting.  And then there's that word Merge.  Anyone in this business, or who has thought about it for a few minutes, realizes that there are many shades of Merge.  I was pretty astounded, but not surprised, when I realized that this was as deep as it gets.

Ya, that "Merge" choice was scary ... I was glad I just backed up, deleted from the iCloud & then held my breath & jumped.
Anyway, it's all going well now as I plug along - thanks again for all the help & great input.
Cheers,
Clyde
  
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Jerry Krinock
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Re: A few newly reorganized bookmarks lost & recovered
Reply #4 - May 20th, 2012 at 7:25am
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Clyde wrote on May 19th, 2012 at 11:24pm:
I stopped auto import but left the auto export.  Especially right now as I'm only forcing changes OUT and not wanting anything IN. I think this is ok (?).
Yes, because you know what you're doing.

Clyde wrote on May 19th, 2012 at 11:24pm:
that item in the menu is grayed out - which probably makes sense since I have nothing checked under Agents
Yes, that is why.

Clyde wrote on May 19th, 2012 at 11:24pm:
I was wondering if it was picking up some age discrepancy thing (well, yes, perhaps iCloud did have some issue like that) but whatever, when making changes of the magnitude I am currently making I will take heed to let iCloud finish it's convulsions before importing Smiley
I don't know.  Conflicts always arise in any syncing system; anyone who has used MobileMe is familiar with the annoying this will change more than 5% of your bookmarks – OK or Cancel? dialog from iSync.  It was quite un-Mac-like and I'm sure Apple got a lot of negative feedback on that.  With iCloud, Apple has removed this – to an extreme.  There is no documentation whatsoever.  All they tell you is to switch on the Bookmarks checkbox in System PreferencesiCloud.  You then get what looks like a "choice" – it asks you whether or not you want to Merge your bookmarks with those in iCloud, with OK and Cancel.  But it's not really a choice because clicking Cancel just aborts the setting.  And then there's that word Merge.  Anyone in this business, or who has thought about it for a few minutes, realizes that there are many shades of Merge.  I was pretty astounded, but not surprised, when I realized that this was as deep as it gets.
  

Jerry Krinock
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Clyde
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Re: A few newly reorganized bookmarks lost & recovered
Reply #3 - May 19th, 2012 at 11:24pm
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Clyde wrote on May 18th, 2012 at 9:58pm:
window shade (or whatever you call the slide-out drop-down)
Jerry Krinock wrote on May 18th, 2012 at 11:27pm:
Officially, Apple calls it a sheet.  But window shade is probably more descriptive.

I always like to know the correct terms and hoped you would let me know - thanks!

Clyde wrote on May 18th, 2012 at 9:58pm:
Much to my dismay, upon import (yes, import was AFTER the export as mentioned above), ALL the RECENTLY changed bookmarks (from the past 30-40 min of organizing) were gone from both the browser & BookMacster bookshelf.  The new folders I created endured, but they were all empty
Jerry Krinock wrote on May 18th, 2012 at 11:27pm:
Arghhh.  This is probably the work of iCloud.

Good to know what's up and who's affecting things.  Thanks.

Clyde wrote on May 18th, 2012 at 9:58pm:
My attempt to resolve:  I used Time Machine to grab a pre-problem version of the bookshelf file and open it instead
Jerry Krinock wrote on May 18th, 2012 at 11:27pm:
Since you have OS X Lion, there is a more modern and convenient method for reverting to old document versions, for applications which have adopted Lion's Auto Save and Versions feature.  Click in the title bar of the window, just to the right of the title.  Details here…

Good call, thanks.  I'm a veteran with Time Machine but new into that feature of Lion. Thanks for the tip.

Clyde wrote on May 18th, 2012 at 9:58pm:
but it just kept reverting to the same as described above.
Jerry Krinock wrote on May 18th, 2012 at 11:27pm:
This is probably because the document is configured to automatically import from Safari when it is opened.  (That's another reason to use Lion's Versions Browser… BookMacster skips those automatic actions when restoring from Lion's Versions.)

Good to know, thanks.

Jerry Krinock wrote on May 18th, 2012 at 11:27pm:
For now, you should probably disable Auto Import and Auto Export.  Click the tool SettingsOpen/Save and then switch those two checkboxes OFF.

I stopped auto import but left the auto export.  Especially right now as I'm only forcing changes OUT and not wanting anything IN. I think this is ok (?).

Clyde wrote on May 18th, 2012 at 9:58pm:
What worked:  I used Time Machine to grab a pre-problem version … I denied all import requests.
Jerry Krinock wrote on May 18th, 2012 at 11:27pm:
Besides Auto Import when the document opens, you're also getting import requests from your BookMacster Agent, which are probably triggered by iCloud.  Some days iCloud only pipes up when it changes are made from Safari, BookMacster or the cloud (another Mac or iOS device).  Other days, it does so every 15 minutes, usually close to the quarter hour.  Yesterday I noticed that it was on its 15-minute schtick.

Very interesting, thanks.

Clyde wrote on May 18th, 2012 at 9:58pm:
I changed the Settings:Clients to only Export to Safari & Chrome and NOT to import.
Jerry Krinock wrote on May 18th, 2012 at 11:27pm:
OK, I was going to suggest that you switch off Agents, but switching off the Import checkboxes on all Clients switches off both automatic (Agents) Imports, as well as any manual imports.  Starting in BookMacster 1.11, a new menu item BookMacsterStop Workers, Agents will turn off and shut down all Agents and their Works immediately.

that item in the menu is grayed out - which probably makes sense since I have nothing checked under Agents and only Export checked under clients.

Clyde wrote on May 18th, 2012 at 9:58pm:
I exported the desired structure using Command+U
Jerry Krinock wrote on May 18th, 2012 at 11:27pm:
Good.  Now the question: Is iCloud happy?  Have another look…
  • Activate Safari.
  • Click in the menu: BookmarksShow All Bookmarks
  • Scroll to one of the trouble spots, where you were seeing empty folders, or whatever.  Is it still OK?
  • Activate BookMacster and Export (⌘U).
  • The Show All Bookmarks display will go blank, then reappear after a few seconds.
  • Verify that the bookmarks now appear as in BookMacster.
  • Watch it carefully for 30 seconds or more.  If things go bad, it means that iCloud didn't like what it saw, and downloaded the bad old stuff from the cloud.
  • If things are OK, come back to Safari after 20 minutes, inspect Show All Bookmarks again and see if things are still OK.
If things look OK after 20 minutes, your changes have stuck, and you're probably out of the woods.  If not, repeat the export.  iCloud can stubbornly keep pushing old items in particular, and I've seen repetition help to convince it that I really mean it.  I've seen it take 3 exports.

Yes, after the first re-do things were all fine. 
I was wondering if it was picking up some age discrepancy thing (well, yes, perhaps iCloud did have some issue like that) but whatever, when making changes of the magnitude I am currently making I will take heed to let iCloud finish it's convulsions before importing Smiley

Clyde wrote on May 18th, 2012 at 9:58pm:
I will not attempt to do any importing for now.  For now I will endeavor to keep the Bookmarkshelf as the only import source and for now will add bookmarks by BookMacterizing (maybe I should do this anyway?)
Jerry Krinock wrote on May 18th, 2012 at 11:27pm:
The BookMacsterize Bookmarklet still works, although in recent BookMacster versions the Status Menulet (PreferencesGeneral) and Anywhere Menu (PreferencesShortcuts) deserve a look because they allow you to visit bookmarks too, and add bookmarks immediately to a desired folder.

I love the BookMacsterize Bookmarklet and it's presence encourages me to operate MORE in the BookMacster environment.
And thanks to this prompt I am now (the last 5 min) using the Anywhere menu.  Wow - that is awesome!


Jerry Krinock wrote on May 18th, 2012 at 11:27pm:
Regarding importing, you'll need to import eventually if you ever add bookmarks from your iOS devices.  iCloud will push them into Safari, but an import from Safari is necessary for them to be processed in BookMacster.

True.  I will come back to thinking about that one ... I'm making SO many changes at this time that I don't want to risk another iCloud spaz-out yet Tongue

Clyde wrote on May 18th, 2012 at 9:58pm:
So it would seem that I have done something wrong (I configured something wrong, didn't wait long enough between export & import, etc).  Ultimately I want as much automation as possible with bookmark syncing, and of course, I don't want to LOSE any of my organization time & bookmarks.
Jerry Krinock wrote on May 18th, 2012 at 11:27pm:
Well, I don't see anything you did wrong.  Cleaning out iCloud before you got started was a good idea.

Good, thanks.

Jerry Krinock wrote on May 18th, 2012 at 11:27pm:
Assuming that the problem is iCloud reverting to the bad old bookmarks, this can be caused by several things…
  • BookMacster did not export in an iCloud-friendly way.   This would be a bug in BookMacster.  Although we've spent a lot of time on that, and no such bug is known, it's possible.
  • iCloud was unhappy to begin with, for some reason.  When iCloud is unhappy, it will repeatedly push old bookmarks and/or structure back from the cloud.  This may not happen for 20 minutes.  I think this is probably what happened after you were done yesterday.
  • A bug in iCloud.  Yup, these have been seen.
Let us know if you're able to get your changes to stick in Safari, which means that iCloud is happy.  Once iCloud is happily syncing, it will generally stay happy.

Great advice all around.  Thanks very much for taking the time to give such a detailed reply!
Cheers,
Clyde
  
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Clyde
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Re: A few newly reorganized bookmarks lost & recovered
Reply #2 - May 19th, 2012 at 10:08pm
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Jerry,

Great reply & advice, thank you.  I will work through all of this.  For now I'm just organizing & exporting and will work the importing back in soon & will reference this thread.  I have about 3,000 bookmarks and am having fun with the "treasures in the attic" organizing & throwing away as appropriate. 

Kudos:
By the way I just pointed a local Mac consultant here in town towards BookMacster.  Like me, he has a ton of bookmarks that had gone "stale" due to disorganization & inability to properly sort, access, etc.  Your product has re-empowerd my bookmark world and given new life & accessibility to this valuable personal "database" that I have amassed over the past decade.  As I learn more, I'm loving BookMacster more every day.   [And this support forum took the edge off of my panic from yesterday when I had a little setback.]

Cheers,

Clyde
  
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Jerry Krinock
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Re: A few newly reorganized bookmarks lost & recovered
Reply #1 - May 18th, 2012 at 11:27pm
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Hello, Clyde.  Thank you for your detailed explanation.

Clyde wrote on May 18th, 2012 at 9:58pm:
may possibly try to go to style 3 if I can learn how the bookmarks can sync with other computers & devices other than with iCloud
Usage Styles are for typical cases.  It looks like you may want to use both styles 2 and 3.  But you are correct in taking things one at a time.

Clyde wrote on May 18th, 2012 at 9:58pm:
window shade (or whatever you call the slide-out drop-down)
Officially, Apple calls it a sheet.  But window shade is probably more descriptive.

Clyde wrote on May 18th, 2012 at 9:58pm:
Much to my dismay, upon import (yes, import was AFTER the export as mentioned above), ALL the RECENTLY changed bookmarks (from the past 30-40 min of organizing) were gone from both the browser & BookMacster bookshelf.  The new folders I created endured, but they were all empty
Arghhh.  This is probably the work of iCloud.

Clyde wrote on May 18th, 2012 at 9:58pm:
My attempt to resolve:  I used Time Machine to grab a pre-problem version of the bookshelf file and open it instead
Since you have OS X Lion, there is a more modern and convenient method for reverting to old document versions, for applications which have adopted Lion's Auto Save and Versions feature.  Click in the title bar of the window, just to the right of the title.  Details here…

http://support.apple.com/kb/HT4753?viewlocale=en_US&locale=en_US

Clyde wrote on May 18th, 2012 at 9:58pm:
but it just kept reverting to the same as described above.
This is probably because the document is configured to automatically import from Safari when it is opened.  (That's another reason to use Lion's Versions Browser… BookMacster skips those automatic actions when restoring from Lion's Versions.)

For now, you should probably disable Auto Import and Auto Export.  Click the tool SettingsOpen/Save and then switch those two checkboxes OFF.

Clyde wrote on May 18th, 2012 at 9:58pm:
What worked:  I used Time Machine to grab a pre-problem version … I denied all import requests.
Besides Auto Import when the document opens, you're also getting import requests from your BookMacster Agent, which are probably triggered by iCloud.  Some days iCloud only pipes up when it changes are made from Safari, BookMacster or the cloud (another Mac or iOS device).  Other days, it does so every 15 minutes, usually close to the quarter hour.  Yesterday I noticed that it was on its 15-minute schtick.

Clyde wrote on May 18th, 2012 at 9:58pm:
I changed the Settings:Clients to only Export to Safari & Chrome and NOT to import.
OK, I was going to suggest that you switch off Agents, but switching off the Import checkboxes on all Clients switches off both automatic (Agents) Imports, as well as any manual imports.  Starting in BookMacster 1.11, a new menu item BookMacsterStop Workers, Agents will turn off and shut down all Agents and their Works immediately.

Clyde wrote on May 18th, 2012 at 9:58pm:
I exported the desired structure using Command+U
Good.  Now the question: Is iCloud happy?  Have another look…
  • Activate Safari.
  • Click in the menu: BookmarksShow All Bookmarks
  • Scroll to one of the trouble spots, where you were seeing empty folders, or whatever.  Is it still OK?
  • Activate BookMacster and Export (⌘U).
  • The Show All Bookmarks display will go blank, then reappear after a few seconds.
  • Verify that the bookmarks now appear as in BookMacster.
  • Watch it carefully for 30 seconds or more.  If things go bad, it means that iCloud didn't like what it saw, and downloaded the bad old stuff from the cloud.
  • If things are OK, come back to Safari after 20 minutes, inspect Show All Bookmarks again and see if things are still OK.
If things look OK after 20 minutes, your changes have stuck, and you're probably out of the woods.  If not, repeat the export.  iCloud can stubbornly keep pushing old items in particular, and I've seen repetition help to convince it that I really mean it.  I've seen it take 3 exports.

Clyde wrote on May 18th, 2012 at 9:58pm:
I will not attempt to do any importing for now.  For now I will endeavor to keep the Bookmarkshelf as the only import source and for now will add bookmarks by BookMacterizing (maybe I should do this anyway?)
The BookMacsterize Bookmarklet still works, although in recent BookMacster versions the Status Menulet (PreferencesGeneral) and Anywhere Menu (PreferencesShortcuts) deserve a look because they allow you to visit bookmarks too, and add bookmarks immediately to a desired folder.

Regarding importing, you'll need to import eventually if you ever add bookmarks from your iOS devices.  iCloud will push them into Safari, but an import from Safari is necessary for them to be processed in BookMacster.

Clyde wrote on May 18th, 2012 at 9:58pm:
So it would seem that I have done something wrong (I configured something wrong, didn't wait long enough between export & import, etc).  Ultimately I want as much automation as possible with bookmark syncing, and of course, I don't want to LOSE any of my organization time & bookmarks.
Well, I don't see anything you did wrong.  Cleaning out iCloud before you got started was a good idea.

Assuming that the problem is iCloud reverting to the bad old bookmarks, this can be caused by several things…
  • BookMacster did not export in an iCloud-friendly way.   This would be a bug in BookMacster.  Although we've spent a lot of time on that, and no such bug is known, it's possible.
  • iCloud was unhappy to begin with, for some reason.  When iCloud is unhappy, it will repeatedly push old bookmarks and/or structure back from the cloud.  This may not happen for 20 minutes.  I think this is probably what happened after you were done yesterday.
  • A bug in iCloud.  Yup, these have been seen.
Let us know if you're able to get your changes to stick in Safari, which means that iCloud is happy.  Once iCloud is happily syncing, it will generally stay happy.
  

Jerry Krinock
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Clyde
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A few newly reorganized bookmarks lost & recovered
May 18th, 2012 at 9:58pm
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MY History: 6 years as licensed user of Bookdog, primarily in the background.  I set it, it ran faithfully. 
A few days of experience using BookMacster (love it - bought the license, will probably "increase from Basic License to 5 computers" but first need to keep learning …)
           ______________________________
What I want:
Usage Style 2 (… I think)
- to have bookmarks synced between multiple computers + iPhone for Safari & Chrome.
- to be able to launch URLs via bookmarks out of the browsers
- to be able to add bookmarks in browser or iPhone or in BookMacster & have it sync with browsers, devices & thus back to BookMacster.
- to be able to organize the bookmarks with BookMacster or with browsers & all to stay in sync.
(I am not rigid on these wants - and may possibly try to go to style 3 if I can learn how the bookmarks can sync with other computers & devices other than with iCloud)
           ______________________________

My settings before the problem:
Clients:
Safari √ Import  | √ Export
Chrome NO Import | √ Export

Agents: Simple
Import Changes from Clients
Sort
Export Results to Clients

File location: Dropbox
           ______________________________

What I tried / Where I'm at:
I shut down iCloud sync and deleted all bookmarks on all devices except a master device (desktop computer).
(Note: my plan is to leave sync off for now while I'm getting myself sorted out with BookMacster)
I left iCloud ON on the master device.
I organized bookmarks in BookMacster and exported to Safari and Chrome
I let things settle over a few hours.
Last night I turned on sync for my iPhone and things filled in nicely. All looks good.
This morning, updated to BookMacster v1.11  All was fine all day subsequent to version update.
A few hours hence I spent some time in BookMacster organizing some folders, bookmarks.
I hit Command+S and the Export window shade (or whatever you call the slide-out drop-down) was evoked.  I exported.  Subsequently the [?import window shade?] popped up and I imported. 
           ______________________________

The problem:
Much to my dismay, upon import (yes, import was AFTER the export as mentioned above), ALL the RECENTLY changed bookmarks (from the past 30-40 min of organizing) were gone from both the browser & BookMacster bookshelf.  The new folders I created endured, but they were all empty...
           ______________________________

My attempt to resolve:
I used Time Machine to grab a pre-problem version of the bookshelf file and open it instead, but it just kept reverting to the same as described above.
           ______________________________

What worked:
I used Time Machine to grab a pre-problem version and opened it side-by-side and it reverted to the same as above but I Cmd+z backed up to undo the import.  Things now looked pre-problem in the Time Machine grabbed file.  I dragged the desired bookmarks from this Time Machine bookmarkshelf that were deleted from my main bookmarkshelf and dropped them into my main bookshelf file and worked it back to how I wanted it originally. 
I denied all import requests.
           ______________________________

Going forward (this afternoon):
I changed the Settings:Clients to only Export to Safari & Chrome and NOT to import.  I exported the desired structure using Command+U
I have de-selected the import tick bock from Clients, Safari and have things set to Export only
I will not attempt to do any importing for now. 
For now I will endeavor to keep the Bookmarkshelf as the only import source and for now will add bookmarks by BookMacterizing (maybe I should do this anyway?)
           ______________________________

So it would seem that I have done something wrong (I configured something wrong, didn't wait long enough between export & import, etc).  Ultimately I want as much automation as possible with bookmark syncing, and of course, I don't want to LOSE any of my organization time & bookmarks.  I am happy to modify my workflows, expectations & ultimately I am open to doing it Jerry's way Wink

           ______________________________

Thanks for any thoughts / advice / corrections to my behavior.
I do like your software very much and am doing my best to Read the Manual and become a student of the software.

Cheers,

Clyde
  
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